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Twelve Indians on the field?
Posted Wednesday, October 31, 2007, at 12:07 AM<< Previous | Read comments | Respond | Email link | Next >>
I noticed earlier today a response to a recent Weblog entry that slipped under my radar. Reddog asked last Friday in this Weblog entry whether Jackson had 12 men on the field for the blocked extra point in the 21-20 victory against Eureka. I can't answer that for sure, but on Eureka's second extra point, which tied the game 14-14 just before halftime, the Indians did have 12 men on the field. I asked Carl Gross on Tuesday night if he had been made aware of the possibility of having 12 men, and he said he had not heard of it and thus had not looked at the video tape to check that. I was taking video from the field level for the second half and trying to take as tight a picture as possible. From the video on the Semoball.com Web site, which has been edited down to take out the time between plays, I could only come up clearly with 11 players. The players visible at different times during the clip are Blake Peiffer (59), Brian Hill (70), Cole Rodgers (2), Antonio Garritano (99), Kevin Pridemore (97), Jacob Bullinger (71), Cody Randen (32), Drew Bucher (33), Jake Wren (5), Ethan O'Connell (62) and Matt Lang (24), who came in untouched from the end and blocked the extra point to leave the score at 20-14 Eureka. But at the very end of the clip, just before I turned off the camera, a white shoe and two hands with black gloves are visible clapping on the left side of the frame. That would match the white cleats and black gloves of Jamie Schumacher (42), who was in on the first two extra points, and also his location in the formation, which usually was on Jackson's far right. "If we did," have 12 men, Gross said, "it was unintentional." On the first extra point, Andy Winkleblack (34) was on the field with Peiffer, Hill, Garritano, Pridemore, Bullinger, Bucher, Wren, Lang, O'Connell and Schumacher. On the second extra point, Rodgers and Randen were on the field and Winkleblack was not. Schumacher, one of Jackson's leading tacklers, also was on the field and called timeout when Eureka lined up for the 53-yard field goal that it did not kick, but Jackson had a different lineup for that situation with Adam Collier in at nose tackle.
And if you want a copy of the DVD Jackson vs. Eureka ($20), drop a line to my e-mail, tcarrig@semissourian.com.
Update and responses to comments The Post-Dispatch did contact Eureka coach Farrell Shelton, who went to the videotape after hearing of this blog and spotted 12 Indians on the field for the final extra point. You can check out their story by clicking this link to the stltoday.com Web site. They also have a thread on the topic on their forums and there is discussion at mosports.com. One of the posts on mosports message board claims it didn't make a difference, since Jackson had the extra players hanging back behind the line of scrimmage, and since Jackson still had to drive 80 yards to score, and since Eureka threw an interception on its final drive. I don't buy all of that. An extra guy on the field helps, even if he's just out there in case Eureka decides to slip an end out on a pattern and go for two. Lang came in untouched, and it's possible Eureka's line was trying to account for more bodies than they expected, although it also looks like the Wildcats just messed up the assignments on the right side. I also believe it was unintentional, even though it happened twice. Andy Winkleblack was on the first extra point and Gross said a couple of days later that Winkleblack suffered a hand injury in the game. It's very possible Jackson had a mixup in which player was supposed to replace Winkleblack on those plays. In addition, Gross' first reaction when I told him they had 12 guys on the second PAT was a surprised reaction along the lines of "No kidding?" It would have changed the game some, but Jackson still did drive 80 yards in four plays for a touchdown late in the game with a stunning catch-and-run 78-yard pass play. From the view of a teenager who now has his season ended (and Eureka has somehow climbed back to No. 1 in the latest Massey Ratings, for what it's worth), it would be tough to take and there likely will be some reactions expressing that disappointment. Professional sports fans agonize over missed calls or errors years later, even if they are just part of a grander scheme of how the game transpired. In some ways, it adds to the aura of a great game. Would it have made a difference if it was flagged? We'll never know. Comments Showing comments in chronological order [Show most recent comments first] |
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Eureka get over it. It wasn't done on purpose, there is no proof that it effected the play, and finally who is to say you would have won the game if you made the extra point. Your coach should have re thought out the last Eureka Play that was intercepted by the Jackson Defense. It was a great game, Let it go at that.
Jackson cheat?never!
what ever happend to the time keeper in the 84 Cape ,Jackson game? anybody on here remember that game? sound off ok?
Toby- Eureka Coach Farrell Shelton has confirmed, by his game film, that Jackson had 12 men on the field during the second and third extra points in prep insider at stltoday.com He realizes through MSHSAA that nothing can be done, but adds, "it is hard to tell that to 18 year old boys". I feel pain for both teams, knowing Jackson did not intentionally do it,and Eureka lost a chance to advance in the playoffs. But this officiating these days! This is 5A playoff football! It is such a fundamental part of the referees job to count the players and seems it would be so easy when they are all lined up to block an extra point attempt. But to neglect it twice! Every High School these days announces the referees names before the game and that the officials are men well versed in the rules of the game(open book test) and men of the highest integrity(maybe a little low on money).There is an old saying, "that the best game officials go unnoticed to the fans" Will MSHSAA terminate these refs or assign them to JR High football till 2010?
There is a tendency to focus on these as the only calls that were missed. The only way to determine how the overall officiating affected the outcome of the game is for the entire game film to be studied in detail to research all missed calls. In doing so, one might find some missed calls that helped Eureka as well.
Even though I would root for Jackson over Eureka and even though Coach Gross is a relative of mine and even though it was obviously unitentional as Missourians we cannot gripe about the way Mizzou has been treated by the Big 8 (remember Colorado five downs and Nebraska kicking the winning TD pass) and then say 12 men on the field did not make a difference..it does and it did..it is up to Jackson to rectify the situation in a sportsmanlike manner.
If a review of the game film revealed the obvious holding penalty on one of Eureka's touchdowns, what would be done?...nothing. Just part of the game. If another violation missed led to a first down that kept a drive alive, how would that be corrected? It cannot.
Well, in my opinion I feel that Eureka deserved to win. It is not an "if" Jackson had tweleve players, because there WERE twelve players. Unintentional? I think not, once is a mistake, twice is called a play. Eureka High School is thrid in state but because of an unsportsman like play, Eureka is now suffering a great loss.
Ok so there were twelve men on the field...if they were rushing more than they could block they would have blocked the other extra point also...And if Eureka deserved to win because of an extra point they would've been scored on again after Lang's last interception...still leaving Jackson as the winner...As long as humans are playing the game mistakes will be made, whether by the players or officials...
Emotional intensity in games games such as this are unmatched. Kids and coaches are going to make mistakes when emotions run high and so much is on the line. Officials are there to govern the game, maintain order, and secure the quality of the contest. Neither Eureka or Jackson needs to cheat to win. The real focus in this situation should not be on Eureka nor Jackson, but on the officials. Have they been interviewed?
The best Team Jackson won that night.How do you point to one call unless your Coach Shelton who was running around the field/sidelines screeming all game like it was a scrimmage ,that's real sportsman like! Are you kidding me? Eureka got more calls,look at the box score and you will see the penality yard.When other stats show jackson had more total yards/played better def.;quite frankly Jackson should have won by 20+ if it wouldn't had been for those bad refs stalling their drives deeeeeeep in Eureka territory more than 4-times'Did you see that on the film too Toby boy!! Did you ever play football to know when someone was soundly beat?Just rewatch the hole game and you might see Eureka's dt. was off sides when he got thru the gap and blocked the field goal; come on it was a great game game and the better team won that night. Give credit wear its due!!!!
Jackson had 251 total yards; Eureka had 214 (with 114 of that coming on two plays). Jackson had 11 first downs; Eureka had six for the entire game, none in the first and third periods.
Lang's big finish; Zweigart taking 27 carries with the flu and an arm injury; Harris throwing a couple of crucial passes; the defensive effort. I think all of that has been covered.
Eureka played an all out game they deserve it way more then those cheaters from jackson it looked obvious that it was a game plan to have 12 men one the field one time might not be on perpouse but when you do it more then once but 3 times that saying something hopefully they will do the right thing
I read the article about this game in the St. Louis Post today and it made me think of how stupid the playoff system is in Missouri. It's not right that a team can loose one game and be out of the playoffs while other teams can loose six games and move to the next round. Which was the case for Parkway Central back in 2003 who went 4-6. Eureka has had the problem more than once with having their one loss of the season occur during district play keeping them out of the playoffs. Like back in 2001 when the went 9-1 losing to Ladue in the second to last game of the season. In most other states the top teams from each confrence advance to the playoffs making the whole season important, not just the last three games. So what I'm saying is that the Missouri High School playoff system is crap and has needed to been changed a long time ago since hurts the good teams like Eureka year after year. But guess what Jackson players, you would be complianing about the blow call if you were in their shoes because that one play meant Eureka's chance of making it to the playoffs.
OMG, mogearjammer!! Are you seriously making a reference to a game from 1984??? Are you serious? Do you have a job? Do you have a family? If you remember '84, you have children maybe?? Well, you probably ought to put your energy toward them, and GET OVER 1984. I don't even know what you're talking about, b/c I was 3 in '84!!! But, my God, just let it go and GET A LIFE!!
SEMO56 and I are still interestd in who the officials were and whether they will officiate again. Have they officiated Jackson games before? Did Coach Gross and his staff of twenty assistants notice they never count players? Eureka was flagged for twelve men on the field after the Jackson coaching staff and crowd got the referees attention, while Eureka's coach was refered to as being unsportsmanlike for storming the sideline and field for trying to report the same thing. As Eureka pointed out, why not risk a 1.5 yard penalty and dare us to go for a 2-pt conversion, when you have stuffed our running game all night long. The game was played by 16-18 year old boys, it is hard to say what could have or should have happened, although both schools are confident they would have won. The officials names will satisfy my interest in this blog. Thank you
IF I remember 84? I DO! I was 15 and on the Cape Central football team .We were down by 3 points, in the red zone with 9 secs left on the clock. We called a time out, refs aknowledged, but the time keeper continued to run the clock. After the time ran out the Jackson players and refs RAN off the field.I know its no big deal. It was just a game.I had fun playing the game.
We all know high school sports are meant to teach children sportmanship and how to get along with others. Some adults (parents) forget that!
For your information Brownie1351,I have a job,kids and a life. The world does not revolve around just you.I read the article and I thought of that game.
the jackson eureka game was good but I am from Eureka and i go to the Eureka high school I can say we are not happy with the way jackson had to play 12 men on the field 2 times that i know of they blocked are extra point with 12 men we would have been up by 7 then but since they blocked are kick they got the ball back and scored to make it even at 20 but then made the kick for 21. if they had not blocked the kick we would have had to kick it off. But we cant do anything about it but the officals i heard were fired for those that want to know
As for the officials, my information is that the crew worked a playoff game in Southeast Missouri on Wednesday night.
bob1, you're obviously a Jackson alum. Not because you defend their antics, but because you can't write worth a darn.
You most be a loser not to be able to stat any facts-and the answer is no loser.
I don't know how you always seem to do it, but Toby you certainly have a flair for digging up whatever you can to make as many people upset as possible. Does this increase your pay, or just your worth to the SE Missourian. Incredible, but the more I read the more typical this scenario becomes.
JACKSON CHEATERS, and to think they live in a perfect town. Looks like they were cheaters to me.
bob1, If the answer is "no loser," then what was the question?
I cannot believe I am going to even respond to this but the anger is rising , let me point out a few things.
I live in Jackson and also referee high school football. I did not do this particular game, I was up north at a class 4 game that was also very exciting. We had 2 or 3 calls that probably were not correct and if we had instant replay then they would have been. The point is that there is not one crew in this state or any other that is going to call a perfect game and catch everything. The crew that did this game was well suited to do this game. I doubt that this 12 man nonsense was the only mistake they had. I am sure there were calls or non calls that hurt Jackson as well. It is the nature of competitive sports to be upset at a loss, but for the love of God people, we are hurting the Eureka kids worse by stirring this tub of sh$% . What are they really learning right now? To be whiners and cry babies instead of working in school to prepare for the rest of life. Even if Jackson ends up winning the state title do you think job interviewers or college review boards are going to care who won , who cheated , who is to blame, on this particular night. the answer is NO, it will not have the slightest effect. Please let this go! We look awfully stupid ( including myself ) for even spending time with this.
To REDDOG I will ask that you watch your comments about why we referee and how smart we are. You may be blown away with the professions that football officials have. Money is not a problem pal. I probably lose upwards of 10 to 12 K during the season to go out and be with the kids on fall nights. Furthermore, I have no plans of retiring so I can make more money. I would like to invite you to contact MSHSAA and register to officate football next year. We could use someone like you that always gets it right. I am sure you will be doing a state final your first year. Come on out if you have the guts.
dont worry.. i have been reading reddog's post for months now... he doesnt know poop!!!!
Well spoken Johnboy-keep up the good work!
John-thanks for pointing out a few things, refereeing football,and living in Jackson. 12- man nonsense will teach the Eureka players about incompentent bosses, co-workers and employees later in life and how to deal with them. On monday night football they sometimes tell the referees day-time professions i.e. lawyer, college or high school adminisrators, business owner, etc. Usually a position that allows them the luxury to do it. The professions of the high school refs I know, National Guard, ex-coaches, newspaper owner, truck drivers, construction workers, factory workers, and farmers. You didn't mention your profession, but in reading what you say, I would think you would leave work one hour early on Friday to get to your game, you do this 10-12 times a year and lose 10-12k. Wow thats $1000 an hour.Contact and register, thats the problem MSHSAA has, they have to pretty much take all. Some are well-respected and very good, while some have no business doing officiating. Usually the one's that have no business doing it also don't take criticism well and vent anger on blogs.I never said I would get it right, only that the crew in Jackson blew a very simple call. Respond if you like. But heres wishing Jackson the best of luck in their championship run. I will look at MSHSAA game box to see if you get that state final.
Reddog, Please just tell me you are not a 12 year old kid or Hillary Clinton bloging on semoball.com cause there are many similarities from your thought process.In the interest of my own stupidity and a slow day at the office ( I am driving my solid waste disposal truck and replying to you at the same time, to bad you are not the car next to me) I will reply and play dolls with you one more time. Every referee in Southeast Missouri works on average 3 to 4 games a week. We have to leave our professions an hour or two early Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday and some Saturdays. You must have a thing for incompentent bosses. Nice outlook on life Hillary. As far as comments about my officiating I will retire this year on one circumstance, that you replace me. For your info, only one to two out of every 10 persons that signs up to officiate is still doing it 3 years later. Most people quit because of time constraints or they just plain cannot do it. The Jackson-Eureka crew has at least 40 years of experience between them. I think you should just say Thank You to them for the number of kids they have kept from getting mangled in a ball game over the years. Hopefully you have contacted MSHSAA by now to replace me.Pick up the phone right now. Operators are standing by.
My last post was a little smart reddog but I am having a little fun with you. Blogging is a past time of mine and i am usually in the Chiefs chat rooms. I am serious about one thing. Refereeing is not as easy as it looks and I will back any crew because if it weren't for them, Mom and Dad may be visiting their child in the hospital with a broken neck from football. Easy on the refs!! Peace
I heard from my sister's friend's cousin's auntie's uncle's brother who works for this guy who knows this guy who sells shoes to this one guy that drives a delivery truck for this company that works for this group that oversee's this outfit that cleans the carpet for the coach at this school that played against some team that played against Eureka and he heard that Jackson actually had 15 guys on the field during that play, but three had whistles around their necks.
Always keep the kid's safe, do the best you possibly can without instant replay.And always count the players, Jackson is good enough without the benefit of the blown call. Hope it doesn't tarnish their Championship. Called MSHSAA they are not in favor of replacing legends. Slow garbage day after the weekend? Thanks for seeing my Presidential qualities.
NoDisclosure...now THAT is funny! Pardon me, while I turn off the TV. Hillary is on.
NoDisclosure...you are gay!!!