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| Monday, September 8, 2008 |
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Give your thoughts on SEMO men's hoops
Posted Friday, February 29, 2008, at 10:08 AM<< Previous | Read comments | Respond | Email link | Next >>
There is no doubt that part of the epic collapse of the SEMO men's basketball team was due to injuries.
You can't discount the importance of Brandon Foust, who has missed the past 12 games -- 11 of them losses -- and some of the other players who have missed time. But you can't blame it all on injuries. Not when a squad loses 12 of its last 13 conference games and doesn't even make the OVC tournament. Even with the injuries, the Redhawks appeared to have enough talent to at least push for a top-four OVC finish. So, what do you think were the main problems this year for the Redhawks? And how disappointed are you with how the season has gone? Also, how much hope do you have for next season? Comments Showing comments in chronological order [Show most recent comments first] |
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Edgar is obviously the main problem. He doesn't teach the fundamentals.
NO hope for the next 3 years.
I agree with you redhawks07.
I noticed the attendance was listed at 3,387 last night. But when looking at the pictures on the website, it'd didn't look like that many. I saw a lot of empty seats, more so than normal.
With these results, expect the crowds to get smaller and smaller.
1.Too many turnovers - Could the excessive turnovers be a lack of team discipline?
2.Too many 3's.
3.Not enough touches for the big's.
4.Not enough ball screens.
5.No pick and rolls.
Does Semo have a play to get the ball inside? I said all along we need to play inside out. Your bigs get 6 touches last night. Thats a joke.
Is this coaching or players? If you teach it in practice the kids should be able to execute it in the game! Forget fast and furious. Just play fundamental ball.
You play like you pratice. You dont have to attend practice to know what is going on in practice. It has been played out in this years season. Losing Brandon was a loss but not a huge loss. The talent is there, match the style to the talent. Fast and Furious is not working.
Edgar was the committee's 3rd choice.
Edgar was the AD's 3rd choice.
Edgar was Dobbins 1st choice.
The AD is suppose to be the expert in the sports arena. At Southeast, the AD runs the athlectic department when it comes to daily operations, except for major decision - then the AD turns into Dobbins puppet. Dobbins forces his decisions on everyone around him. He has surrounded himself with "Yes" people. First, he gets rid of the man that built the ShowMe Center (soon to be Dobbins Center) and then he cuts the sports budget where we can't complete, then he hires Edgar. Now he puts money back into the program to ensure that his decision to hire Edgar was the best decision in SE's history & its not working out. Not to mention the BJ Smith stuff and the how the University handle it... Lets not even talk about our Football Program & our run, run, run, and then run again Coach....
There is talent and athletic ability on this team. This team has good inside and outside players. Injuries...so what..every program in the nation has injuries... Garner had all kind of players get hurt...heck, He had to dress out a football player and had two subs at one time......
JUST WIN....
or maybe we should accept that this is a crappy University when it comes to basketball and football......
HEADLINE:
Mr. Dobbins
Hire somebody that knows sports and how to build programs.. Hire them and let them do their job and give them money to do so....
Baseline
I could not agree with you more....seems like somebody was saying that last year....??????
I will continue to support the guy because SEMO is my team & I want this program to win so bad,,,its hard.
How hard is it to pass the ball to our post players? How hard is it to not turnover the ball over every 3rd time down the court? Why substitute players that are obviously starting to heat up. Is Edgar still on Murray's payroll? Was he here to destroy our men's BB team? Where are the X' and O's? Will Bogan be the "center" of the team next year? Who from this team is going to return for next year?
Edgar was indeed a bad hire. I think that Geek night is a joke. That's the only time that the Geeks show up to the game is when they get recognized. They could care less about the other 15 or so games we have at home. I hope the little talent that we do have, don't decide to skip town neext season.
NOTE: next years starting lineup: Bogan, Williams, Herring, Moore, and Harris!!! Drop the damn Fast and Furious and just play normal BB...
It probably doesn't matter anyway. The OVC will just find a way to erase any winning seasons from the basketball programs anyway. That's probably why the men's team has lost so many. Why risk the allegatations and investigations. It's better to stick to the policy: No winning seasons for the men's team and certainly no championships. The OVC...well they just can't have that! Just ask the women's team.
I'm frustrated and don't pretend to have the answer. What I did see this year though was a lack of teamwork, an every now and then defense and players in the point guard position that stalled the offense. They were very athletic, talented young players but not point guard, offense generating ball handlers. They dribbled us, turnovered us and shot us right out of games.
The Redhawks didn't seem to have a half court offense. It was "touch and shoot". No one seemed to follow their shot and more often then not, we shot before anyone was in postion to rebound.
No team is going to be successful without an inside game. No team is going to win if they don't play SIU type defense and no team is going to win the conference if the ball handlers can't hit free throws.
I don't know what to expect next year...but I think it will be more of the same.
Wow! All great comments that I agree with almost totally today! Foust was a talented player but not that great of a loss that it should have caused the team to fall apart. It seems they have no game plan whatsoever except to play run and shoot street ball. They have no true point guard and can't play defense without fouling. Is it the coaches or the players fault? I don't know the answer to that but I suspect we're in for three more years of the same thing!
NO DIRECTION OR LEADERSHIP. PLAYERS ARE OUT OF CONTROL.
PROBLEM IS DOBBINS.
get coach Ron Cookson, he will get them under control.
Dobbins, Dobbins, edgar, edgar, thugs, thugs, no-defense, no-defense, low basketball iq, low basketball iq, low classroom iq, low classroom iq.
You get what you recruit. This program could be successful it is just about finding the right guy.
I think Samuel can turn the football team around. Basketball has no hope. I saw the lineup listed above. Bogan, williams, herring, harris, and moore. Those guys will lose again. They could care less about winning.
It is sad to be a Redhawks Mens Basketball fan.
Edgar needs to fire Ronnie Dean. Get a head assistant that can actually coach, and can recruit the type of players that will work for Edgar's systeam.
bdr4981...Edgar needs to fire Ronnie Dean...Are you crazy!! Dean brought in Herring, Harris and Moore and all 3 brought something to the team. I think this is probably the best Dean has done since he brought in Gonner and Golson!!
We need to play normal basketball and drop this "fast and curious". I don't think firing Edgar is the answer (not like it is going to happen anyway...we don't have the money). You can't go changing coaches everytime the wind changes. I say give Edgar 2 more years and if we haven't made the final 4 of the ovc tourney and seriously contended for the conf. championship then pay him his final year and bring in a new guy. Again I don't have the answer but going 6-0 to not in the ovc tourney just sucks bigtime!!!!
RCIR, this is Dean's 4th season. Those guys Golson and Gonner were recruited by someone else. Those guys came here in like 02, middle of the season. So who is Dean's best recruit?
Zac Roman!!! My 2008 vote for the next Head Men's Basketball Coach of the University of Southeast Missouri State!!!
The question asked is the coach or players. I will argue and continue to argue the SAME things you complain about on here go on at many other successful programs, many of which recruit so well they overcome them with great players and wins.
I will use North Carolina because so many in our area pay attention. Watch them play.
Watch the horrible passes....does Roy teach fundamentals
Watch the horrible horrilbe shot selection, basically anyone and everyone can shoot at any given time....does Roy teach this or allow this or just not have a say
Watch the lack of INTENTIONAL post touches....Tyler H and the other bigs basically score off free lance touches and off. RBs.
Watch the absolutely mediocre M-M defense. They have to be the most talented group to ever be SO weak and fundamentally unsound defensively. Does Roy teach this? Ball Screen and Roll Defense? A JOKE! Watch the bigs leap out 10-12 feet out of control and slow to recover. Maryland enjoyed this and ate it apart for their upset win earlier.
Too many 3's? Tough to say, they make alot, but they shoot alot too.
I say this just to give folks something to think about. You have a Hall of Famer whose team is LOADed with talent and who cannot hold an ACC in the 60's and allows unrestricted offensive possessions. And then you have SEMO who have decent...at best....players and who have a coach who is lacking in many of the same ways as a Hall of Famer. One wins with the more talented team and the other struggles big time with questionable talent.
Just something to think about while you are throwing your rocks.
The main thing HERE at SEMO is that we're LOSING. I don't care who the coach is or who the players are, but we need to get a lot better next year.
Bottom line now is that we have a BAD team.
Edgar is NOT going anywhere regardless how bad we are....and I think we've established that. First of all, the SEMO Administration will at least give Edgar another year to see what happens....and 2nd - no one around here has the big-time bucks to buy out his contract.
Is Edgar a bad coach? I don't know. He won at Murray, but that was several years ago and things have changed.
Is Dean a bad recruiter? I don't know that either. I do think we have a talented players, but a lot of that talent is undeveloped. Williams, Bogan, Pearson, Herring - none of those guys have reached their potential. Mainly because they're not being taught the fundamentals.
Players at North Carolina and Kansas can get away with the misatkes because they're the most ELITE players in the country, and they'd win under any coach. Edgar could coach UNC and they'd probably win 25 games.
When you have a conference like the OVC (pretty weak), where many teams are somewhat equal in talent, the mistakes and lack of fundamentals will be recognized a lot more.
I think Seth McDowell would be a great goach for the RedHawks. He played footbal at SEMO, he went to high school at Jackson, and teaches at Central. He has all the links to the local schools and would be able to recruit kids from Oak Ridge, Delta, and Bernie. He would be able to assemble a group of kids with average skills, average hight, exceptional loyality, and most of them will be use to playing in the Show me Center with larger crowds since they play in the Christmas Tournament.
All joking aside, there is a lack of motivation on the team, little to no coaching, and the kids are knucleheads. Now, is that a product of the system, or is it the system that makes them that way. My guess is a little of Both.
Marty, Maybe you can fill us in on what the real problem is since you an that poster from last week were planning on meeting to discuss this.
Dr. W: "The kids are knuckleheads." Now there's an intelligent comment.
Don't blame the players. IF we have BAD players, blame the coaches who recruited and signed these guys.
I'm willing to give Edgar ONE more year to turn this around, although he's here til at least 3 more years guaranteed - doesn't matter if we go winless. He's not going anywhere.
Let Edgar get ALL of his players in here under his system and then see what happens. If we don't finish in the top 4 in this weak OVC, something's wrong.
SEMO is close to St. Louis and Memphis, plus there's probably some good talent in nearby Arkansas, Kentucky, and Southern Illinois that we should able to get.
The kid from Pinckneyville, IL - Kyle Cassity should be near the top of our list....but Edgar wouldn't even think about signing a player like that. He was the 2nd best player at the Pepsi Showcase, which by the way, had better basketball played than what we've seen from SEMO the past 3 years combined.
redhawks07, after everything I wrote the only thing you can comment about the knucklehead comment? I was trying to be nice and not say the players are thugs, not smart, have no respect for other players or coaches on the team. That is said all the time, it's a known fact, and I am tired of hearing the same old thing. Therefore, knucklehead is a nice way to say all the above.
While you give Edgar another year to destroy the team, we will get about 4 years of crappy basketball.
The thing that most strikes me as curious is when loss after loss Edgar would be quoted as saying something like "the guys gave great effort but things didn't go their way". I think that smacks of acceptance of mediocrity. The problem is fairly simple as I see it. You have a group of talented athletes who made bad decision after bad decision after bad decision. After Foust went out with the knee, not one player stepped up and became a leader or a spark. Say what you will about Foust, but he played with desire and sparked the team. Too many of the other guys looked like they were playing just for themselves. Look at the awful (not just bad) shot selection, terrible passes, standing around while the other team launched and leaped after rebounds and loose balls. This is not lack of talent but lack of focus and desire. I always thought "fast and furious" would mean push the ball up the court (the fast) and on the defensive end there would be intense defensive pressure (the furious). This year turned out to be "fast and foul". There are disciplined ways to play up tempo without your point guard out running everyone on the floor simply to turn the ball over time after time. There are disciplined ways to make the other team have to hustle back to guard against the quick score while still getting good shot selection. There are all kind of ways to get touches for your bigs and still get the open look for the trey. We saw it all year - only from our opponents. I'm done with this team. I put too much emotion into them to be let down sooo much.
I've read through all of the posts. For the most part, they are right on!
I really thought Edgar would improve the program. I was so wrong on that one (at least thus far).
Anyway, Rod Pearson is reckless on the court. Losing Faust to injury was a loss, but not significant. The problems are: 1-way too many fouls 2-way too many turnovers 3-can't make free throws 4-don't guard the 3 point line 5-when a player gets hot or goes on a little run in a game, Edgar takes him out 6-don't set screens for good shooters 7-lack of defensive intensity 8-not enough touches inside.
I'm not sure what we'll have next year. I'm a big supporter of this team, but spending time and $$$ to watch a team whose only consistency is finding ways to lose is getting old.
I think Edgar would be ok, if he could find an X/O guy on the bench.
There are a lot of things I agree with and a few that are absurd. For the most part the problems are obvious, but the last post hit the nail on the head. It is kinda the reverse of the problem that Garner had. When Garner had a GREAT recruiter, his teams were really good. I think the same assumption can be made if Edgar had a great X and O guy or two on the bench.
All pretty good posts... I hope someone from the SEMO administration, athletic department, or Men's BB team reads these threads and decides to take them as constructive criticism. There has to be something done about this team...
King: NOTHING is going to be done about the current status. Edgar is not going to change because he thinks we're fine....and so does the administration. Everyone is like "wait and see what happens next year."
Well I can tell you that IF Edgar doesn't start teaching the fundamentals, we won't be any better. But I don't think Edgar knows how to teach the fundamentals.
It was the same thing with Garner... he could teach fundamentals but he couldn't recruit a D3 player to come to SEMO...
Laplante out at JSU. Really comes as no suprise!!!
http://www.jsugamecocksports.com/article...
semo99grad: No need to bring up Garner anymore. But since you did...how about those 98-99 and 99-00 teams? Even the 00-01 team went 18-12. Those weren't Shumate's recruits.
How about Griffin, Golson, Gonner, and Winans? Those were ALL Garner recruits.
Not to make excuses for Garner, BUT his budget was cut in half following the good years. SEMO finally gave Garner enough money in the 2004-05 season, but it was too little, too late by then.
Edgar has the proper funds, but he can't coach.
But I liked Garner, and he had a lot better hair too. redhawks07 you like to watch 3R play?
Garner did well when he had a great recruiter in Schuberth. After Tom left... so did Garner's wins. My point was that if Edgar can get a great X and O guy in for the bench, we will be in a lot better shape.
Don't give me Gonner and Golson... what did Gary do with them? He got 1 tourney win. Woo. 1 win in 6 or 7 years, grrrrrreeeaattt.
semo99grad: I was just talking about individual players. Gonner and Golson were very good. But like they say, that's all ancient history now.
Who's is Edgar going to bring to help coach? He doesn't think he needs any help. Plus, unless a coach leaves or is let go, there's probably NO MONEY to hire a 4TH assistant.
Dr. Wil: I've never seen 3R play. My cousin played baseball there with a couple of current Redhawks. He said the games were very fun to go to. They turne off the lights and used pyro for their player intros.
My guess is Edgar will have to replace at least 2 of his 3 assistant coaches...and he won't be firing any of them. Didn't Edgar promise that he would win a conference championship during his interview press conference?
If Edgar has to replace any of his assistants, where's he going to come up with the money to find a good X's and O's guy that would want to come to a struggling low mid-major team??
They should have hired Anthony Beane. He's already proven he can recruit to SEMO. The team that made the NCAA's were comprised of alot of his recruits if I'm not mistaken.
Lennies McFerren would also have been a good hire.
What was Edgar in his last year at Duquense? 9-22???
I don't Edgar will leave + it goes beyond him why we are constantly in a state of mediocrity. We need a new AD with a progressive vision for turning this around.
I have a resolution for all of this Doctor W, lets make Seth Mcdowell the president. Then he could hire HIMSELF as the A.D. and THEN as AD, he could hire himself as the head basketball coach. All Hail Seth McDowell!!! Hip Hip Hooray!!
www.firescottedgarfund.com
Beane was about as important to this staff as Schuberth. Schuberth's name is being mentioned for some possible job openings, including JSU.
Tidlewave YOU SIR Know what you are talking about! The problem starts at the top! Nothing changes until the Dob is gone! You are correct about #3 on the list....You get what you pay for...Enjoy Board of Regents!
NOTHING is going to change.
The problems with basketball, have to do with basketball, not with anything superficial.
semo99grad
Any of this sound familar...lol
...I find it interesting that Boomerang has no comment... He is the one of the few guys on here that seems to be level headed with every comment that he makes......
its hard to bite the hand that feeds you...lol
Those of you that think Edgar needs or is going to bring in an X's and O's bench coach are absolutely insane.
Edgar believes in HIS style...and that's what he's ran forever. So why would bring in an assistant coach that would suggest something different. This is the way Edgar runs his system and it's what were getting here at SEMO.
If Edgar didn't think he had any ability to coach whatsoever, then he'd probably consider bringing in someone to help. But he obvious feels that he's the right guy for SEMO and his system will work.
Maybe it will and maybe it won't. 2 years is probably a little quick to judge. But I'll say that next year will be very crucial for Edgar. Maybe he needs all of his own recruits to be successful.
redhawks07:
I'm not saying that Edgar is going to bring in anyone but don't be so sure that there won't be some changes in his approach.
For you people that are grasping to the straw that just wait until Edgar gets his players here and then we'll see. If things stay the same, in this system there's only 2 ways that will work. 1) Your team has overwhelming talent compared to the rest of your conference, that ain't going to happen now days like it did when he was at Murray. 2) The talent you bring in has to be on the level of at least a mid level BCS conference team. By talent I mean god given talent such as a) a 48" vertical b) great hand-eye coordination c) cat like reflexes etc. In other words things that can't be taught by a coach.
If you watch teams like Tenn., Memphis, N. Carolina, etc. those teams don't have good fundimentals but they can recover from their mistakes much faster because they have great athelets. Edgar is trying to coach SEMO like he would Tenn. or a Memphis. We will never have those type of athelets. We do have plenty of talent here, but it's RAW UNDEVELOPED talent.
I consider the MVC the top mid-major conference in the country. That league isn't filled with a lot of atheletes. If you compare SEMO's roster, top to bottom, with most teams in the MVC we have as much or more raw talent than most of the teams. The difference is every team in the MVC is very good at the fundimentals. Their plays have been developed into "basketball players".
Some people have been coming down pretty hard on our players. This is the one area that I disagree with most of you. These players want to be "coached" and developed into good basketball players. They aren't stupid. They are very frustrated and know better than anyone that they're not being developed into the best players that they can be.
I could keep writing on this all day but I have to get the laundry done before leaving for Nashville tonight.
07, Do you honestly think, at all, really. Go back to what you just said. Don't you think for a second that there might be a guy who Edgar has worked with, that might be able to help teach his system? This isn't something that Edgar just pulled out of his hat and said, ok, I'm going to run this, no one else does. He learned it from Nolan, worked on it with Mike Anderson, has coached under it at Tenessee. Were not talking about something complex here. No, you don't go out and hire someone who doesn't share your vision, (we already have that). You go out and hire a guy who can teach your vision. Duh.. And really, you just need a guy to coach the fundamentals. Gosh, if Edgar could just get Hatfield out of retirement, that would be a starting point.
I hear Barry Hinson is looking for a job, maybe Edgar could hire him..lol
Tidal... what???
SIU316... read semoredhawks' response to your last stupid comment about 10 times... then slam your head into the desk really hard for being stupid. You hire someone that knows your system very well, not someone like Dean who coaches a completely different system.
Dean coaches a system? If so what is it? I'm not sure he can scribble an inbounds play?
Edgar doesn't have a "system". That's the problem. Fast and Furious isn't a system. It's put 5 players on the floor and let them freelance. Someone on here try and explain his offense to me. Coaches that scout us can't do it. They just laugh because nothing we do makes any sense. I've given him a pass for 2 years now. From now on I'm holding him accountable. He has to be the worse X and O coach I've ever seen in any sport. From what I'm hearing Dean is supposed to be a pretty good defensive coach.
Interesting articles
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/wr...
http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_4574...
The SI article is great. I haven't gotten to the other one yet, but I found this key component...
"It requires quick, smart and talented guards who have a feel for the game."
This is what Southeast is missing.
Couple more interesting ones
http://espn.go.com/ncb/2003/0121/1496444...
http://espn.go.com/ncb/2003/0107/1488430...
http://espn.go.com/ncb/2003/0212/1507738...
Didn't the article say this Walberg guy is not working? This would be a perfect person to "teach" the system. The thing is, this is a system, today's system, stuff that kids want to play, no it isn't your grandfather's motion offense. I've always thought that a lot of picks and screens are overrated anyways. Kids don't want to learn that, and they never can get themselves into proper positioning when they do, then most of the time have no clue what to do without the ball. Even Bob Knight will tell his kids that it is all about spacing first, screens second.
oldindian68, Heck yeah Seth would clean it up.
Walberg is a great coach. I got to see him last year at two different basketball camps. I currently run his system at my school. The press is awesome...This past year, my 7th grade went 9-0 and my 8th grade went 11-1...My highschool teams improved greatly with it as well, but didn't really have the guards to do it at that level... Walberg resigned from Pepperdine University...He was an awesome highschool coach in Calif...
SEMO has the talent and athletic ability to run his system - without a doubt...
He will be at the Memphis Tigers Camp this Sept...I'll be there...maybe Edgar should go..haha
The difference in Walberg and Edgar - Walberg system is driven off pressure DEFENSE... not run and gun
Its Full Court Pressure Defense and driving to the basket, while taken OPEN three pointers.... Its not man to man full court pressure,, its being agressive in the passing lanes by trapping the ball..you have to play very smart.....
Why are the latest blogs not showing up in the semoball 'hot topics' section?