What is everyones thoughts about the upcoming Zone Tournament.
Cape Girardeau Sr Legion vs Festus Sr Legion 3pm
Jackson Sr Legion vs Creve Coeur Sr Legion 5pm
Ballwin Sr Legion vs Cape/Festus 8pm
Festus is loaded with talent. Looked at their record and they have 3 losses I think? The st. Louis teams will bring talent and Jackson looks like their playin well. Its always a competitive zone. Festus has won the last 3 so its theirs to lose again. It will be interesting to see if Festus throws their best against against Cape (winkelman I assume) or saves him for the nightcap. I would bet on the latter.
I think Jackson is in a good part of the bracket to win it. I plan on making the trip up for any games on Saturday and Sunday. I wish I could make it up Thursday and Friday also.
I will add I think the Zone Tournament is the best baseball tournament in southeast Missouri at any level the entire year.
I remain surprised larger crowds do not gather to watch it.
It's time for someone other than Festus to shine!
The tournament is in a rain delay right now. They still hope to restart play later tonight.
Rain starting up again in Cape, as expected. I think they hope to play after this patch passes.
No more play tonight. Four games now scheduled for Friday starting at noon. I'll update more later.
Festus has been able to keep the "select" teams from vulturing their talent. I see alot of those players throughrout the year and they get the best that area has to offer. somehow Festus has been able to keep their players and I think that is one of the keys. Very tougn to compete against a team that pulls the best players from 4 to 5 quality baseball programs. Jackson looks like they could make some noise, as does crevr coeur.
I went through Capaha Park a little bit ago, and the score was 7-4 but I do not know who was winning, sorry! I think the Visitors had 7 but I don't know who the Visitors are in the game?
My message from Marty said the final was 7-3 Festus. Either way, Festus moves on in the winner's bracket.
Creve Coeur leads Jackson 2-0 heading to the bottom of the third inning.
Cody Heisserer on the mound for Jackson.
Creve Coeur leads 2-0 after four innings.
Creve Coeur leads 2-0 after five innings. Jackson is the home team.
Heisserer chased in the top of the sixth. Creve Coeur leads 4-0. Caleb Rowald coming in with two outs.
Who is pitching for Creve Coeur?
Bloop leads to another run. 5-0 Creve Coeur.
5-0 Creve Coeur going to bottom of the six. Keith Coulson pitching for Creve Coeur.
5-0 after the sixth. Jackson had two runners on with Heisserer and Alex Bolen up but couldn't bring in a run.
Jackson catcher Chase Simmons leaves the game after running into a dugout wall. Not really sure what he hurt, but he had some trouble walkin off the field.
Creve Coeur leads 6-0 going to the bottom of the eighth.
Things don't look good for Jackson. Any thoughts legion baseball fans?
Rain starting to fall. Cape should have hosted a big tournament earlier this summer, would've ended the drought.
Jackson is dead in the water. 6 runs is too much to overcome against a team with the pitching of Creve Coeur and dropping to the loser's bracket this early in the tournament makes coming back next to impossible. Note: I didn't say totally impossible. This tournament should come down to Creve Coeur and Festus.
Was the Jackson-Creve Coeur finished? Will the other two games be played tonight?
Creve Coeur won 6-0. Coulson pitched a complete-game three-hitter and had 11 strikeouts. All the rain has cleared out of Cape now.
Ballwin beats Featus 10-5 in winner's bracket game.
Cape and Jackson are playing an elimination game now. Cape just scored a run on a balk in the top of the second but a double play with the bases loaded ended the half-inning. Headed to the bottom of the second.
Who pitched for festus
Did Festus throw Winkleman? That's huge for upcoming opponents of Festus.
1-0 Cape after two.
Winkleman did not pitch.
Who is pitching for Cape Girardeau and Jackson?
Very interesting choice. Festus elects to save Winkelman.
I've been told Festus run-ruled Ballwin a couple times this season. Trust the source bu obviously I wasn't at those games or familiar with either team's schedule.
One has to wonder if Festus will roll the dice twice Saturday and try to save Winkelman for the first championship game Sunday.
Jesse Schott with a 3-run homer for Cape in the top of the third. Headed to the bottom half now.
Who pitched the first game for Cape Girardeau today? Who is pitching now? Who would Cape have left for Saturday considering they also had a pitcher throw multiple innings Thursday?
Travis Smith pitching for Cape. Joel Koenig for Jackson.
Jackson gets a run in the bottom of the third. 4-1 Cape.
Who finished the first game for Cape Girardeau today?
Rachel, Festus beat Ballwin 11-1 and 10-1 this season according to stltoday. I expected Festus to fall to someone in this tournament, but Ballwin was the last team I expected to beat them.
I wasn't at Cape's earlier game. Know Aaron Wendel pitched and Alex Davie has been used as well.
The talent level in American Legion baseball is so high any team can beat any team.
Has Andrew Williams pitched for Cape Girardeau yet?
Cape extends its lead to 5-1 in the top of the fourth.
No. Williams has not pitched. I told you all the ones I know who have.
Anyone know enough about Creve Couer to know how its pitching stacks up moving forward?
Rachel approximately how many fans do you estimate have gathered to watch the Cape Girardeau-Jackson game?
Cape leads 5-4 heading to the fifth.
Still 5-4 heading to the bottom of the inning. Cape has stranded eight runners.
This one could go extra innings.
Jackson's Alex Bolen ties the game with an RBI double. Runners on first and third with one out.
Bolen scores on a wild pitch. 6-5 Jackson. Two outs.
Jackson leads 7-5 after five.
Same pitchers still pitching?
Caleb Rowold, who appeared in Jackson's game earlier today, has pitched the last few innings.
7-5 heading to bottom of sixth.
Logan Henson pitching for Cape.
9-5 Jackson. Cape coming up in top of seventh.
Looks like Jackson could carry some big momentum into Saturday if it can hold on.
Cape coming back, pulled to within 9-8 heading to the bottom of the seventh.
Costly error with two outs led to two runs for Cape.
Now that's what I call baseball.
Who is pitching?
Andrew Williams entering the game. Jackson has scored a run to go up 10-8. There are runners on second and third with one out.
Who has pitched for Jackson? Is Rowold still in?
Alex Bolen just did some impressive dancing in the Jackson dugout. I notice the important things.
Jackson blowing things open, up 13-8. Two outs.
13-8 heading to the eighth.
Joe Elfrink entering the game to pitch for Jackson.
Just watched what was likely Andrew Willimas' final AB with his dad Steve as his coach. Steve was of course also Andrew's coach at Cape Central. Been a pleasure to watch him play.
Of course, Cape could rally. And if they do, Andrew will be up again.
13-8 headed to bottom of eighth.
Any thoughts on the the likelihood of a rally baseball fans?
Jackson wins 13-8. Cape is eliminated.
What's the latest scores on Saturday
Creve Coeur beat Ballwin 15-5 in winners bracket final. Festus eliminated Jackson 4-0. Winkelman three-hitter, 10 K, 2 W, only allowed two runners after third inning. Festus playing Ballwin right now in losers bracket final for right to meet Creve Coeur Sunday.
Winkelman put on quite a show tonight.
Final game just ended at 12:55 a.m. after about four hours. Ballwin rallies to beat Festus 13-11 in an incredible losers bracket final. Ballwin scores six runs in top of ninth inning after trailing 11-7 to begin the frame. Ballwin and Creve Coeur play at 2 p.m. Sunday in championship round. Ballwin needs to beat Creve Coeur twice.
American Legion baseball at its finest.
One has to wonder how much pitching Ballwin will have left for the championship showdown after so many games.
Any thoughts St. Louis fans?
One additional thought for debate . . .
Would the Missouri high school baseball playoffs be more exciting and prevent one pitcher from dominating if all playoff games beginning at the start of the district tournament were nine-inning games with a run-rule after seven innings?
Is the nine-inning game what puts the American Legion baseball playoffs in an elite class of its own?
1. Ding dong the witch is dead!
2. No Ballwin has absolutely no way of beating Creve Coeur. But thanks for toppling the evil empire on your way out.
3. 1 pitcher could still win atleast one game for an underdog in the playoffs and one reliable closer would help ensure this as well. Leave it the way it is, you got enough high school coaches whining that it needs to be double elimination starting with districts, let's not add more issues to the problem.
4. Also worth noting, only the Senior Legion playoffs are 9 innings. Freshman and Juniors still only play 7 inning games in postseason play. So yeah, not an elite class if only the Seniors do it.
I also agree high school playoffs should be double-elimination.
And yes Senior American Legion baseball remains an elite class.
It is too easy for an ace hurler to pitch his team to the Class 1 state championship under the current playoff system.
Dustin, if the high school playoffs went to double elimination then the high school season would stretch deep into June and the Legion season would never start. Under the current system you still need more than 1 pitcher to take you to the Class 1 State Championship, or any State Championship for that matter.
Raining now in Cape....
It's even more of a factor in softball, where absolutely no pitching limits are invoked. The same pitcher is allowed to pitch every single game!
There is no reason a double-elimination system would make the high school playoffs last longer.
A double-elimination district tournament could still be played in one week.
You could then have a double-elimination regional with the winners of the four districts from each region of the state and a double-elimination final four.
The American Legion final four takes three days to play.
It takes two days to play a sectional and quarterfinal. It also takes two days to play a semifinal and championship.
The double-elimination playoff format would only extend each round by one day.
Here is what such a format would look like for a sectional / quarterfinal round:
Game 1: District 1 Winner vs. District 2 Winner
Game 2: District 3 Winner vs. District 4 Winner
Game 3: Game 1 Winner vs. Game 2 Winner
Game 4: Game 1 Loser vs. Game 2 Loser
Game 5: Loser Game 3 vs. Winner Game 4
Game 6: Winner Game 3 vs. Winner Game 5
Game 7: Loser Game 6 vs. Winner Game 6 (If-Necessary)
pouring rain here in cape
Two possible concerns about this system:
1. Could MSHSAA make enough at the gate by adding the extra day to pay for the cost of four additional games? The current playoff system only requires paying umpires for two sectional games and one quarterfinal game.
2. Another potential concern is would there be a shortage of good umpires available if you had double-elimination tournaments in all classes being played on the same days in the sectional / quarterfinal round.
Go Ballwin. Good luck Boys
One possibility could be letting the final "two" teams play best two-of-three, instead of starting the double-elimination earlier. This would be similar to the College World Series.
It poured for several hours at Capaha without the tarp being on (they obviously didn't put it on last night after the games because no rain was in the forecast). There is some work being done on the field right now. A decision will be made at 5:30 p.m. as to whether there will be any baseball tonight.
Glad I stayed home and watched the Olympics.
No baseball today at Capaha. The field is just in too bad a shape. Creve Coeur and Ballwin will try to line up a field in the St. Louis area to play the final Monday.
With all the college fields in the St. Louis area this shouldn't be a problem.
Dustin, in regards to length of a double elimination format for State Playoffs and District in High School let me remind you what state we live in, Missour, where the weather can change on a dime. Yes we had a dry spring and summer this year, but in years where we see our usual rainfall double elimination high school baseball tournaments will drag on for a while. Also a problem with double elimination tournaments is it whittles pitching staffs down to nothing. Case in point was today's Zone 1 Championship between Washington and St. Charles. Once the tournament went to the if neccessary championship game St. Charles was completely void of pitching and the only question was how long until we get to the 7th inning to end the game by the 10-run rule.
I am unsure if the entire district tournament should be double-elimination.
However, I strongly believe a single-elimination playoff system for high school baseball remains inappropriate.
The reality is you would need three dry days in seven to 10 days to implement a double-elimination system for the sectional / quarterfinal round. You currently need two dry days to implement the current system.
It is hard to fathom one additional dry day would not be available in most calendar years.
I won't disagree regarding we might see more high-scoring games in a double-elimination format.
However, I don't see how this would make the playoff experience less memorable / less exciting. It would also make baseball more of a "team" game and allow more athletes the opportunity to pitch.
In the current system . . . the No. 4 or No. 5 starter on a high school team may never see the mound in the state playoffs after starting approximately eight games in the regular season.
What high schools are you following that have their number 4 and number 5 starting pitchers starting 8 games in a regular season? Heck I know alot of schools that barely have a 4th and 5th starter.
On the above point, while I like a good slugfest from time to time seeing a team who has a depleted pitching staff and watching the other team going up there and take batting practice on the pitchers just isn't enjoyable for me. And if they aren't taking batting practice, they're usually scoring because the pitchers can't find the strike zone any more, and that's even worse.
I did like the idea someone else posted above about having the State Finalists in each Class play a 3-game series in the Final, that is the only kind of double elimination format I think will ever happen with MSHSAA and I am perfectly okay with that.
Are you OK with it because it would be easier?
4th or 5th Starter receives around 1 to 2 starts a year at Perryville...around 15 to 20 innings per year...top starter gets around 5 to 6, #2 gets 5 to 6, #3 gets 5 to 6...itmay change a little bit with the new system of having the opportunity to have 5 "extra" games on non school days..I do not see MSHSAA going to a double elimination but I did not think they would get rid of the old 4 team football districts so you never know...as of right now, 2 pitchers can pitch a team in Class 1 and 2 and possibly 3 to a state chanpionship...in our district, a team needs 3 quality pitchers to make a run-for example Kennett 2 years ago-Lack, Wallace and Grantham
Get your semoball.com account today and join the debate if you do not have an account.
I strongly welcome multiple viewpoints and opposition or agreement to my above proposal.
The double-elimination format would also test a team's defense more. A team with one or two dominant pitchers may not need a defense if the pitcher(s) can strike most batters out.
No i'm for keeping things the way they are because the system works. You usually need 3 good starting pitchers plus a solid bullpen to get out of a competitive district. From there you have the 8 best teams in the State in the playoffs. No reason to go with a gimmicky double elimination format, best way to go about it is single elimination one team's best against the other team's best. Double elmination in the State Playoffs will drag water games down and drag the tournament on. Under the current format, American Legion managers lose some of there players for anywhere from 3 to 5 games during those players runs in the State Playoffs. If the high school playoffs go double elimination the amount of time those players will miss in the Legion season will become significantly longer. And if there are players that are on a junior or even freshman legion team, they'll miss far more games since the junior and freshman seasons tend to start a little earlier.
Also Dustin, you say you are unsure if the District Tournaments should be double elimination, but you think the State playoffs should be. Now think about this, if MSHSAA goes ahead only implements double elimination for the State playoffs only then there will be those teams that get knocked out in the Districts that say they were wronged and they need to have double elimination for the Districts as well. Give them an inch and they'll take a mile that's what happen. The root of this entire issue stems from MSHSAA decision to allow 2 out of 4 teams from each football district to reach the state playoffs. Once they did that for football, other sports started clamoring for second chance oportunities in the postseason.
I was not a fan of MSHSAA's decision to allow so many football teams in the playoffs.
However, that is not why I believe the baseball playoffs should have a double-elimination format.
Baseball is a different sport than football and basketball.
The NCAA has a double-elimination format in baseball. The double-elimination format does not exist in basketball or football.
The state volleyball playoffs go to pool play at the state final four even though the district and sectional/quarterfinal rounds have not been switched to pool play yet.
Why would the high school season last significantly longer with the system I have described?
Most district tournament are played in three days. A double-elimination district would likely take five days to play.
The sectional / quarterfinal round would only last one additional day if it was double-elimination.
I would not be in favor of double-elimination during district play. One of the main reasons is weather; rain sometimes puts a strain on finishing the district tourn. in time for the teams to prepare for the sectional. It seldom takes 3 top starters to prevail in the district tourney, because more often than not, the first game for the higher seeds is a mis-match. I would still prefer just letting the final two teams play a best of three.
As semo7178 rain is an issue. The season already lasts too long, being played into June and the Legion season. Extra days for extra games will only serve to go further into June and cause more problems for select legion teams. In the end it's a non-issue in my mind because I don't believe that MSHSAA will ever go to a double elimination format for the baseball playoffs.
I do not think a double-elimination playoff system would require extending the high school season longer.
Some states actually elect to play its high school season in the summer, however.
Defense would definitely be key in a double elimination because balss would be flying around with 4th/5th pitchers for alot teams. Wouldnt mind seeing final 2 teams in district play best of 3 because u i think the best "team" would win,but that probaly will not happen. Baseball is a strange sport because one person can make an ok team really good when he is pitching. The state champion and even district champions arent always the best teams. Alot depends on how seeds and pitching line up.
can we all get along?!? lol as a player in high school i like the district the way it is, and state playoffs.. it makes u want to win badely.. knowing that if u lose ur out and that makes u give 100% on the field!!
I believe we get along far too often.
I welcome debate / disagreement with Showstopper. I also believe Legion baseball should have no impact on MSHSAA's decision on a double-elimination playoff format.
High school baseball should remain above decisions regarding Legion baseball, Senior Babe Ruth and prospect baseball.
I am in shock that Creve couer won this zone, I saw them play in a tournament the last weekend of July and I know Jackson and at least Festus were better than Creve Couer
About showstopper's comment about baseball season already taking too long, I disagree. Baseball last two months (first game mid March, districts mid May) for most teams. The sport that is way way way way way too long is basketball. Upwards of 4 months.
I support 4 4-team double elimination tourneys for district winners at neutral locations at fields with tarps. You get to state and do it again. Baseball is a much different game and 7 innings really isn't enough time to determine who the better team is. I'd like to see 9 inning postseason games too, but I doubt that ever happens.
With all the possible alternatives (as stated, I'd go for a best of three with the final two teams), no system can guarantee the best team winning. Even in 7-game series, often the best team doesn't win the MLB World Series. A great example is our own Cardinals last year, and a number of other teams throughout the years.
Eh...Dustin and I are just having a polite disagreement. Not like the usual Cape Central vs. Sikeston fan pollution on this board. Ugly issue at the State Tournament. Apparently Joplin had to drop out due to not having enough players because of high school dead periods and football camps.
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