I saw this on yahoo and the school was addressing it as a form of 'Corporal Punishment' if we seriously are going to go down this road in a few years we are going to be so obese running might as well be termed Capital Punishment

WOW!!!!

Maplewood is already using that approach to discipline. It seems to be paying off!

I read that article earlier this week and it made me weep for our future.

espn....I understand where you are coming from and I agree with you on a FEW points.

Yes, coaches should have rapport/respect of his team, and I also agree with your point about every coach looking out for every child's best interests. However, I don't feel that 30 minutes of cardio is out of line. When I run, I run for 30 minutes+ without a water break....yes, in the intense heat. I could understand where that argument could be made though. If the child were 10, then that would definitely be the case.

You then mentioned "potential life threatening situation." The kid is playing football. Every play is "potentially life threatening." You could say that about just about any sport. The kid could get sustain a helmet-to-helmet hit and be paralyzed or even worse making every play potentially life threatening. The kids/parents know that about football when they sign up.

You said it's asanine to forbid running as a punishment. I agree. That is exactly what the school vis-a-vis the Iowa legislature is trying to do. They consider forced running as "corporal punishment" or "bullying." Now, coaches in Iowa are going to shy away from running as punishment because they fear for their job.

You mentioned that making a child run for punishment is proven to make a person less likely to run as an adult. I happen to disagree. I think most people dislike running because it is difficult to do over a long period of time. I played sports in high school and don't run as much as I should. It isn't because I had to run extra or as punishment. My wife did not play school sports and she doesn't necessarily like running either. For her, and for me as well, it's the pounding on the joints and shin splints. I rather enjoy biking and/or using our elliptical (i.e. low impact exercises). I didn't see the study, but I would disagree with it. If that were true, one could draw the conclusion that no child that was spanked as a child would spank their own children. Not true....by a long shot. I realize my own situation doesn't make up a study in either instance, but I don't put a lot of faith in studies like that. Kind of like global warming....(not to get off subject).

Attaboy rocket!! 50yrs ago kids werent dying or becoming averse to running. All this psychobabble and pseudotechnology allows the so-called experts to make a name for themselves while making victims out of every wimpy mamasboy who cant take responsibility for breaking rules. Its pathetic!

I remember a couple of times at the end of basketball practice having to run 10 laps for each missed free throw (out of 10). And as far as the vast majority of drills involving running, most coaches would urge his team. not to let another team "out-work" you. The work during those practices paid many dividends during the 4th quarter of games!

Who hacked Rocket's account and made him sound coherent? Hah.

Global Warming? Please keep the politics out of a sports blog.

esp reader, just whot in the tarnation ares yhou talkin bout Bucko? i just do thinks that the the coach could run plakers as much as he ore she wants to could not they? do just not sissy them players if you does not run them do you know Bucko?

Attack, gotta say I'm digging the Uncle Rico avi. "I can throw a pigskin a quarter mile!"

espn_reader:

I am not telling you that running is the only punishment. I even said "I could understand where that argument could be made though." in reference to 30 minutes of cardio. However, in this case, the coach felt that it was appropriate. I would have to defer to the coach. A coach should have several things to use as punishment (i.e. playing time, dismissal from the team, etc).

I guess what I should have said is that we are making assumptions based on a a coach's decision when none of us were there. I'm not suggesting what the coach did was out of line or ok. I honestly don't know because I wasn't there. I AM suggesting that by school is trying to equate forced running with bullying....and it most certainly is not.

We will have to agree to disagree on the "unnecessarily dangerous exercise" portion of your argument. Again....I will defer to the coach.

I don't rememember the article mentioning anything about a heart condition. If the player had a heart condition, he probably shouldn't have been playing in the first place. If the condition was unknown, the player could have collapsed during normal conditioning. We could play that could've/would've game all day. Bottom line is he did not. The coach did what he felt was appropriate. It seems like in times like this and in cases such as this, parents rush to little Johnny's aid rather than defer to the coach (an adult) who was present. I am NEVER suggesting abuse as appropriate. We just seem to disagree that 30 minutes of exercise is "over the line."

Regarding "studies".....I am not suggesting all studies are irrelevant. Obviously, Pavlov's study has passed the test of time because it is common sense. But you are suggesting that we/I believe a "study" that suggests running as punishment will cause one to dislike running in the future. I am sure there are cases where someone has stated that. I happen to disagree because it is not common sense. I dislike running because it gives me shin splints and for the jarring on my joints. Not because I had to run as punishment. People dislike running because it is difficult and effort has to be exerted. Our society, general, dislikes having to work for things. They think things should be given to them (a topic for another day and another blog). Believe me...I ran plenty for punishment. We ran so much after a loss (during baseball) I thought I was going to throw up. We ran from foul line to foul line and ran 60 yard sprints. I did almost 1,000 jumping jacks and 500 pushups during a basketball practice and then ran for 20 minutes straight....in 8th grade! I could barely walk the next day. I don't dislike jumping jacks or pushups because of that. That's silly. Also...I had to write sentences as punishment in grade school. Does that mean I dislike writing now? No, but that's the premise of the "study."

In regards to spanking....I didn't say that a person could spank themselves. I said that one could draw a coorelation with spanking based on the "study." I said that if a person is spanked as a child, then, according to the study, that same child would not spank his/her children. That is inherently untrue. I am sure there are cases, but it is not the "gospel" as you are presenting it. Again....in regards to the "study"....I realize that my experiences in of themselves do not constitute a study. I can only use them as my guidelines. I realize not everyone thinks like me. If that is what you believe, then please feel free. I just think that we are enabling our next generation with excuses and reasons as to why they should not work hard, not just in sports, but in general. Period. This story is just a good illustration of that....in my opinion.

Chuck....what's ironic is that where we play is the same gym where those pushups/jumping jacks happened. Ha! The thing is we ALL had to do that. I don't think we got the basketballs out that practice.

I'd say you are on to something trainhard, I agree.

Rocket, really dude? Now THAT is some funny stuff. Just think if you had ole C. Wooden as your coach though................you would now be a MASTER of posting up below the box!!

Another thing to consider is that many school systems these days, especially public schools, want every child to have the same experience so as to make certain no one gets their feelings hurt. Self esteem, after all, is all important according to the so-called "studies". "Studies" have replaced common sense. In all cases? Of course not, espn! People with common sense know this. Its people with no common sense who have to rely on scientific data that usually doesnt mirror reality, IN MOST CASES! Pavlovs dogs? Last i checked people who are disciplined dont have tails!

Cirithungol17:

I'm sorry, but I had to laugh at your last paragraph when you buck scientifically researched studies for a version of "common sense" that is completely subjective to you. I assume, if I may traverse the political arena for only a moment, you think the theory of Evolution also doesn't mirror reality either, does it?

The fact of the matter is when it comes to understanding the human body and mind, "common sense" is a relevant as "an old wive's tale". It was only 20 years ago, for example, when all athletes were told you shouldn't drink fluids before or during athletic competition because it would make you cramp. Luckily scientific research proved that bit of "common sense" to be the complete opposite of the truth, as well as dangerous.

In contrast to your statement about people who rely on scientific data, I would argue that those who rebuke scientific research because it doesn't match their pre-conceived notions on any particular subject are the ones who are the most lacking in common sense. True common sense would tell you that we, as human beings, should always be willing to keep an open mind to new ideas, especially as our understanding of the human body and mind continue to expand.

BuckMajor: If you were complimenting me, thank you. If you were mocking me, I'd ask you A) if Pavlov's research conclusions were grossly inaccurate and B) if it has since been rendered irrelevant. Since the answer to both of those questions would be no, I'll just assume you were complimenting me on a job well done.

trainhird, just whot commen sense do you have Bucko? how just was you cutted from a cloth Bucko? you s a alien or seomthing? if i wasj you alls coach i woud run you if you di not do whot i said now. but rainhard i get wht you are sayin pal.

definitely complimenting (insert Joe Biden smirk)

TheDaddy: I'm sorry, I literally quit reading when you said "75% of studies are fixed and thats a fact". I literally hung my head and laughed at you. What's sad is you probably have no idea why.

cirithungol17: Really? That's your argument? If you don't remember it, it didn't exist? Wow, so I guess all of those doctors who spent all those years in medical school were wasting their time. All those kinesiologists who have dedicated their lives to the study of the human body in motion don't know what they're talking about. Nope, the memory of some random poster on a message board should serve as the litmus test for the validity of research in any argument. By the way, what you just said was not hyperbole, hyperbole is an exaggeration, not a falsehood passed off as a truth.

But, to address the (other) non-hyperbolic section of your post, I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say. I'm not overgeneralizing anything, I'm telling you the conclusions. I'm telling you the recommendation of those who have studied this situation. I'm informing you of the position of the association dedicated to Sport and Physical Education. You can't wave your hand and dismiss the positions of the authority on the subject because you're too lazy to actually investigate them.

Those with common sense know that. Those with common sense know dismissing scientific and medical studies because you can't be bothered with anything which may not support your position is an incredibly arrogant way to present an argument. Anyone with common sense would know ignorance is never a valid argument.

At the end of the day, you cannot dispute the indisputable, which is a coach which truly has the respect of his/her players shouldn't have to rely on running as a punishment. A coach who uses running as a crutch to support his position has very little credibility in the first place. As I've said numerous times, running, when used in concert with other forms of reinforcement (both positive and negative), can be an effective punishment, but it should never be the only tool in your toolbelt, and it should NEVER go to the lengths this coach reportedly went.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/highschool...

Here is another article on the topic

In the two links that have been provided I have yet to see any statement that he did something excessive. Just that a football player had to run some hills and sprints for talking bad about his team. I don't see a problem with that.

i do know why. it's to get the results that the person who makes the study wants. that knowledge is what you refer to as "common sense." you can go to the democratic convention and survey everyone there and come up with "100% of people think obama is a great president" when 49% of the general population disagrees. you can have a survey saying 78% of people think soccer is more entertaining than football. yea of course, because the study was in europe.

nobody referred to running as a coaches way of "relying on as a punishment for respect" except for you. if anyone is "ignorant" as you propose, then it is you for thinking telling a kid to "go touch the goalpost" if he's jacking around during practice is what gives a coach credibility or not.

if you are one of those people that don't take studies with a grain of salt then i feel so sorry for you and your family... you must shelter the heck out of your family, bike everywhere, spend 100's of thousands of dollars on solar technology for your home, and do not own a cell phone or microwave, grow your own organic foods with no fertilizer or insecticides, watch tv, or do any other things that studies have shown to be detrimental to your health or the environment.

like someone said before, next thing you know, drill sergeants are going to get in trouble for making people do pushups. america is becoming a bunch of whiny vaginas right before our eyes and people like you are why other countries hate us. we're a bunch of lazy pansies who are afraid to get our feelings hurt or get punished for doing something wrong. oh my god, your kid had to run for being late because he had to kiss his girlfriend after school or he was playing grab "butt" while the first team was running plays. GET OVER IT!

For the middle aged men who talk bad about their teams you could always punish them by making them root for Notre Dame.

I am offended by the term whiny vaginas so therefore u need to run please and thank you

well i walked a couple miles with the old lady before dark... is that good enough? and this is 'merica! where we smoke tires not drugs!

Nope, sorry u called your wife?? Old lady!! Now u have to run some more!

I can see right now your fiancé better get you running now u need alot of discipline. Joking have to mess with you men sometimes on here keep you in line.

Cheesehead:

I used many different forms of punishment. Some where physical, some expressed disappointment, some related to scrimmaging, some in game time, etc. Even something as simple as forcing the player to stand in front of the rest of his team and have him apologize for criticizing his teammates and friends would get the point across. The idea the only way to get through to a kid is with running is simply inaccurate.

TheDaddy:

No, you clearly didn't understand why. You cannot give a statistic out of thin air and call it a fact. Thus, the only way you could have come to the conclusion that 75% of statistics are fixed is by...wait for it...using a study which says so.

Like I said, I'm not surprised you didn't understand why I laughed at you. As for the rest of your post, I didn't really read it, given I'm less than impressed with your intelligence. I did notice you calling Americans "whiny vaginas" which clearly demonstrates you're a chauvinist. So when I put together your inability to impress me with your intelligence and the fact you obviously believe women to be inferior to men, I really don't see how you can say anything to which any reasonable and rational person would pay attention. I suggest you stop commenting, lest you embarrass yourself further.

Cheesehead again:

Exercise is not a bad thing. If you read my arguments in full, you will see where I say numerous times that running as punishment is acceptable, as long as it's reasonable and combined with other methods of reinforcement. And your slippery slope argument of "zero consequences" is not a logical argument, it is a fallacy. There will always be consequences. But why do all consequences have to be limited to mindless imposing of physical exercise?

cirithungol17:

I find it amusing you think looking out for the best interests of a child's health, both in the short and long term future, is something of which to be derisive. I think it shows you clearly are not interested in the health of children, but rather in some silly concept of sport. I hope you never were, and never are, a coach. A coach's responsibility is to the child, first, last and most. It's not catering to some old-school mentality which modern society has shown to be an inferior way.

To all who are making light of this:

I find it sad that adults are willing to sacrifice the well-being of a child, simply to preserve their old-school notions of sports. I can't even begin to express how sad it makes me how little you care about children.

Kids can be cruel. If he were forced to do that, they would pick and make fun of him. That is not looking out for the well being of a child!

i literally laughed out loud when you said that espn. you remind me of frances madeson, a crazy liberal who came to madison county thinking she could make fun of a marine's accomplishments in her "newspaper" and call out everyone who thought she was in the wrong for being "uneducated" and "closed-minded". if you really think i'm a chauvinist, then you sir (or madam), are laughably mistaken! to say i believe women are inferior to men is also one of the funniest things i have heard said about me in a LONG time! i actually enjoy reading your recent posts because of the unbelievable assumptions you are making about me! and since this board (and the entire united states) has to apparently be politically correct then fine... i will correct myself... america is a bunch of whiny penises. i guess now i am a sexist against my own sex? oh jesus...

i'll tell you this. when i was playing a fellow player and i got into a fight during practice and we had to apologize to the whole team and that was 100% more embarrassing than having to run.(this is a self conducted survey by the way) i would have rather ran 200 hills than get called out in front of the entire team and apologize. do you think a kid that gets an MIP is going to feel more comfortable running or apologizing to the whole team? you don't have to conduct a survey to know the answer to that! as cheesehead said, high school kids are going to have a field day with a kid that had to apologize to the whole team for something. i know i sure would have at that age!

making a kid run a few hills or a few laps around the track for being late is not "sacrificing the well-being of a child" it's called discipline.

you are the type of person that has allowed the kids of today to be the greedy, lazy, and spoiled brats that they are today. because god knows we can't spank our kids, put them in time-out, or yell at them anymore or it's child abuse.

and this is all coming from a college kid. not some old **** who played football in leather helmets. (no offense guys)

Cheesehead:

Apologizing for a mistake is not embarrassing as much as it is uncomfortable. There's a difference between being uncomfortable having to look the guys you insulted in the eye, and being embarrassed. And the other kids wouldn't pick on him. He'd apologize, the others would accept it, the coach says the issue is done and buried, and we go on with practice. This isn't hypothetical, I've done this on a few different occasions. I know how it works.

And as far as sitting the star player goes...the job of a coach at the high school level is not to win, it's to teach. It's to teach the sport, it's to teach character, it's to teach value, it's to teach hard work. It's not to win. And if a school district really wants to fire a coach for teaching a child the right way to live life, then the school doesn't deserve the coach.

trainhard:

"The Des Moines schools' investigation determined that the Lincoln sophomore football player ran at least 20 hill sprints, completed 20 up-down drills, ran two laps around the practice field and did more hill sprints -- all in 25 to 30 minutes. The Lincoln athletic trainer said the student was not given a water break.

Running as punishment may be a casualty of evolving standards in education and athletics. In 1954, Texas A&M University football coach Bear Bryant subjected his squad to a grueling 10-day camp in which players who sought water were considered soft. Today, such a practice is considered dangerous and criminal, in part because of better understanding of how the human body works and also because of several deaths related to dehydration in football camps."

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article...

That's straight from the Des Moines Register.

TheDaddy:

I knew a long time ago you were a kid who doesn't have proper perspective and understand what it's like to care about a child. That was no revelation to me. To be clear, I don't hold that against you, when I first entered college, I didn't understand it either. But I do now, and hopefully you will someday soon.

And yes, your comment was incredibly sexist. The fact you think making a sexist comment is funny says a lot about you.

You said "The job of a coach at the high school level is not to win, it's to teach."

Please tell that to the coaches who were fired because they couldn't get the job done winning. I agree, the coach should teach but to say winning isn't important is crazy.

As Daddy said, he was put through the embarrassment of apologizing and he chose running. No kind of study can decide what each individual feels is embarrassing or "uncomfortable" Some may think it's embarrasssing, some not so much! We can go all day on this but it looks as if we are not ever going to agree with on the subject. As I said, I agree that an extreme punishment is not right but it's coming to that line of what we think is right and what we think is wrong. Please don't tell us we don't care about the kids because that is far from the case. No one on here wants to see kids hurt or being put through extreme abuse both physically and mentally. You saying we don't care about the kids and not knowing us personally is kinda careless.

Okay since we are talking about new rules and things, I had one Iv been wanting to run by the Semoball community. My cousin plays little league football (9-10 year old) in Atlanta. If one of the teams beats another team by +32 points, the team gets fined $500. Thoughts!? Agree or disagree!?

i can see a punishment, but not $500!!!! playing at that age is to get fundamentals down. but it's the other team's defense's job to stop them from scoring... so i guess if they are up by 31 in the 2nd quarter they take a knee for the rest of the game? if they get an interception and have a wide open field for a pick 6 they run out of bounds? that doesn't teach kids anything...

Cheesehead:

I ALSO said that a district which fires a coach for sitting his star player and losing a game doesn't deserve that coach. Please don't ignore the entire context of my statement. A truly great coach at the high school level or lower understands his job is not to win, but to educate. When you coach, you coach for the benefit of your kids, not for your win/loss record. If you're in coaching for "personal glory", you're in it for the wrong reason.

You have seemed fairly reasonable, which is why I'm discussing this with you, as opposed to dismissing you like Daddy. Please tell you are not equating the hypothetical embarrassment of apologizing for a mistake (which, by the way, for those people who want to talk about the degradation of America, what does it say about America when people think they should not have to apologize for mistakes?) to the hypothetical situation of physical danger. We know of many instances where a child (or even NFL players like Korey Stringer) has died from intense conditioning and/or exercise without water. I don't believe I've ever heard of a child dying from giving an apology.

As far as not caring about the kids, when you are arguing for intense physical exercise as the only form of punishment, despite the inherent health risks and over the objections of several different authorities which warn against it, how else can I view your position? I've already said running as punishment is fine in moderation and when combined with other punishments. The fact you're still disagreeing with me seems to suggest you're arguing for running to be acceptable as the only punishment. So how else can I view your position?

TheDaddy:

Seriously, just stop. The more you post, the more you embarrass yourself. 1) Re-read my entire section on the coach's responsibility again. 2) I'm not belittling you because of your age, I'm belittling you for the absurdity of your comments. I'm using your age to explain the absurdity of your comments. 3) Since I haven't called you a d-bag, I'm not sure what you're point is. Just because other people do it, it's okay for you to do it? Do I need recite the famous "jumping off the bridge" example for you?

As far as "pushing kids to be their best", how does 30 minutes of intense anaerobic exercise, with little resting time and no water break teach maximizing potential? It doesn't. You train your players to go 100% in competition. Running as punishment has nothing to do with pushing a child to be their best, it's intended as a corrective action instead. Finally, you have to understand I'm not arguing players shouldn't run as conditioning, I'm arguing that running as punishment should never be extreme, and should be used in concert with other punishments. I have this sneaking suspicion you don't even fully understand my argument.

Just stop. Let Cheesehead argue your position, because he's doing a far better job, even though we are not in agreement.

BuckMajor:

I disagree with an automatic team fine. An automatic team fine does not take into consideration circumstance. If I play my worst players for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters calling nothing but runs up the middle, and we still beat you by 40 points, what else is the team supposed to do? A coach does what he can to avoid running up the score on children, but at the same time, you never tell your team to not play hard.

The better solution would be for the "commissioner" of the league, or whomever is in charge, to evaluate each lopsided game to determine if a coach was running up a score.

only because you have to be politically correct and try to talk like you are above me. just because i don't capitalize my words doesn't mean i don't know what i'm talking about. i really don't know how i am embarrassing myself. i'm not embarrassed to not be politically correct.

the only things you have to go back on about me is that i'm in college and post absurd, irrational comments. also that i'm apparently sexist. unbeknownst to me (and apparently everyone i've ever had a conversation with.) i even had a feminist professor in college that never even hinted that i was sexist. and trust me we had some discussions.

i never said you called me a d-bag so i do not know where you are getting that from... i said you are ageist because you used my age as reasoning for "the absurdity" of my comments. i said i apparently know a lot of women that are sexist, by your standards, for using "douche bag" as a derogatory term. unlike you with me, i have read the entirety of every one of your posts.

i am also in agreement with you that running should not be the ONLY punishment for unwanted behavior. like i have stated before, pushups, situps, and updowns are ALL acceptable forms of discipline. do i think a kid should run 100 hills for dropping a pass or being late to practice? no. but some sort of physical discipline should happen. little johnny isn't going to say "well by golly i'm never kissing my girlfriend after school so i'm late to practice again!" if all he gets is 10 pushups or having to apologize to the team. that won't deter that behavior. if you think that, then THAT is absurd.

almost everything you have came back on me for has been you putting words in my mouth. i have never once posted that kids should have intense, 30 minute anaerobic punishment with no water breaks. i have said that kids deserve to suffer the consequences of negative behavior. whether that is running, situps, pushups, or updowns.

i do believe that making a kid run hills for a fumble in practice or having a brain flatulent about a play call during practice is a bit extreme. but having a kid run 50 hills for getting thrown out of a game for telling the ref to "throw the f***ing flag!" i consider that a reasonable punishment. instead of writing the ref a b.s. letter telling him he's sorry and telling the team he wont do it again.

and you can't tell me that a coach saying "boys will you please be quiet so i can go over the scouting report?" or "ok guys, let's have a better start to practice tomorrow." is going to affect a kid more than making them run 10 hills for starting off practice sloppy, or talking to each other back in the back while the coach is going over the scouting report.

i believe the only 2 things we do not agree on is that i am a sexist and that running is a way to punish kids for negative behavior. correct?