Posted by vincebrown on Fri, Jan 14, 2011, at 8:05 AM:
Had a chance to see ND's wrestlers at home for the first time in school history. Swept both NMCC and Cape Central - and by 20+ points in each case.
Coach Ross Stevener's got a solid squad, especially in the light and middle weights. Their 189 (Harter) is a solid kid as well.
Don't be surprised if the Dogs make it 2 for 2 in sending kids to state.
Replies (28)
That was such an awesome meet. Notre Dame had one of our wrestlers beat a ranked 3rd in state wrestler, which was so EXCITING to watch. Congrats to him. ND is getting stronger and looking good on the mat. We are very proud of all wrestlers for their dedication and hard work. Coach's name is Marc Stevener not Ross.
-- Posted by kgross on Fri, Jan 14, 2011, at 9:27 AM
Agh! Thanks.
-- Posted by vincebrown on Fri, Jan 14, 2011, at 9:39 AM
I saw the list of kids that wrestled for Cape Central...Was that their JV team? A couple of those names are freshmen
-- Posted by crackerjack on Fri, Jan 14, 2011, at 11:24 AM
No it was the Varsity Team. Freshman make varsity teams too.
-- Posted by kgross on Fri, Jan 14, 2011, at 8:50 PM
Not the freshmen listed on here..I know them very well and if they are wrestling varsity then Central has had injuries or wrestlers have quit since the Tiger Classic. One of these kids wrestled last year in the 8th grade and didn't win a match.
-- Posted by crackerjack on Fri, Jan 14, 2011, at 9:07 PM
I have to say that I am extremely proud of our boys they wrestled their hearts out and it paid off big. To win the FIRST dual meet that they hosted is HUGE and to win against a team that has such a history is even BIGGER. Some are saying that we should not have wrestled Harter up a weight class but EVERY team does this (Central even did that night). To wrestle up a weight class and go against someone that is 20-25 pounds heavier than you takes guts and Harter has plenty of that and heart which this team has plenty of. Notre Dame keep pushing forward you are doing great for a SECOND year team.
-- Posted by grappler on Sat, Jan 15, 2011, at 9:27 PM
After checking the rosters ,Central is minus their 125 pound wrestler,who has apparently quit,Notre Dame also had thier only junior quit.
The Central boy was a state qualifier last year , the Notre Dame boy was going to qualify last year, but due to inexperience failed to make weight second day of districts.
As for freshmen wrestlers, Notre Dame had four at 103,125,130,145, all of whom are beginners and did not wrestle at all last year,their HWT is also a first year wrestler.
The ND sophomores at 112,119 and 171 are the only underclassmen with grade school experience.
The real experience is those grey haired guys who coach the team ,over 100 year of wrestling experience there,they are both 60 years old and wrestled on different teams in the old MIAA conference when Southeast Mo.State had a wrestling team,but never knew each other because one was in the lower the other in the upper weights.
Central athletics is IMO on the rise under new district super Dr. Jim Welker ( himself a state wrestling place winner 2nd I believe) It will be a daunting task for ND to keep up with them ,both schools can only improve with the competition.
The whole meet was a chess match with Central having their 112 pound wrestler cut to 103 and just conceding the 112 pound class to the younger of the Harter brothers,they also moved the young man at 145 up to 152 (he had wrestled against NMCC at 145).In response ND moved their 130 pound wrestler up to 135 and their 189 who weighed in at 184 up to wrestle a 30 pound heavier weight class ,all the moves for both schools produced wins.So I'm assuming the results would have been comparable without the adjustments ,but the pride that was on the line (Cape City Championship) dictated "pulling out the stops".In the end a straight up match up would have been about the same.
As for school size and competitive expectations.NMCC is a class 1 school who will not meet either ND nor Cape Central at their district tournament and has three or more solid state hopefuls on their team,for class 1 they are good but their enrollment inhibits their ability to compete with the larger Cape Central who is a class 3 school. ND actually is nearly identical to NMCC's enrollment but competes in class 2 due to the MSHSAA multiplier rule which forces "private" schools to compete at 1.3 times their enrollment.
In actuality Centrals enrollment nearly equals the other two teams schools enrollments combined.
All that said the night went to Notre Dame and the record will stand as such.
When a wrestler steps on the mat he does so alone the size of his heart matters more than the size of his school and sometimes more than the size of his opponent.
Congrats again to the young men of Notre Dame "umbwa" ( Dogs in Swahili).
-- Posted by grappler on Sun, Jan 16, 2011, at 6:56 AM
grappler---I talked with several of the cape wrestlers and they have numerous injuries (that occurred in practice) and the one kid did quit..I'm not arguing that Freshmen can't wrestle varsity as I did when I was in High School...My point was the talent level listed NOT the grade....I won't comment on your statement about the program on the rise as only time will tell but there is much dissatisfaction with the program from the kids that actually wrestle. I also won't start the argument about the difference in "funding" a program and "building" a program with a defined territory school district. I do wish all the wrestlers well as it is a great character building sport.
-- Posted by crackerjack on Sun, Jan 16, 2011, at 2:21 PM
I'm not so sure Cape Central wrestling is on the rise, we lost quite a bit in last years graduates and will do the same this year. The younger kids will have to start stepping up big time.
-- Posted by BB-BORE on Sun, Jan 16, 2011, at 2:32 PM
I think you have a good solid guy at the Jr.High level feeding the HS program with kids ,the AAU program is having a rebirth.
More than anything though I think the culture/attitude towards athletics is changing in the district. I considered it to be almost hostile in the past ,but as I said the current super was a great hire and sees the value of HS athletics.
I truly believe having ND as a cross town rival will spur Central's people to work as hard as it takes to stay up with or ahead of them.
As for the internal satisfaction/disatisfaction with the current program, there are three ,very, very good wrestlers on that team ,if they can produce them ,they can produce more and IMO it isn't the coaches that are to blame,it's the culture they work in, which includes the student body, administration,everyone.
I watched the culture wear the last coach down.
Those guys need the support IMO they aren't getting.
JMO
BTW if you don't want to "argue " about something bullet,why mention it?
Umbwa( Dogs in Swahili)
-- Posted by grappler on Sun, Jan 16, 2011, at 8:13 PM
we have three very good wrestlers, 2 of which are seniors, the other a junior. I don't think you can take all the blame away from the coaches when the wrestlers themselves are saying the coaches told them to do something that lost them the match. I agree that there isn't much support behind the program but it really is hard to get into the sport when all the meets are away except the tiger classic and it takes a little while to understand it.
-- Posted by BB-BORE on Sun, Jan 16, 2011, at 8:59 PM
Gotcha,the coaches told the kid to cut the ND kid and take him down.
That didn't lose the match for that kid,what lost him the match was his inability to turn the other kid.
Coaches have wrestlers cut people they can't turn all the time hoping to use momentum to get back points.
That kids strength is on his feet it has been since he was a little league wrestler,it's what has made him what he is, so when the coaches ask him to do what he does best,it's wrong?,I don't think so.
In addition using legs when you are behind not getting points out of it doesn't help either.
Coaches make decisions ,they only do so based on their experience with the wrestler ,parents and kids look for someone to blame when the kid loses and they always get the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.
The Central coaches did all they could the move dropping their 112 pound wrestler to 103 gained them 10 points because they knew how matching their 103 and 112 against ND's 103 and 112 was going to turn out.
Losing that 125 wrestler was a blow for their program ,not sure all that story is being told either.
It was a good match,and will probably get a replay at conference,provided the Central kid stays at 140 not 145,and the ND kid doesn't go to 135,he certifies that low,but has had two bouts of stomach virus that kept him from being able to cut,sick kids aren't allowed by Coach S.to drop weight.
The 189 pound kids will get together as well if the seedings go the way I expect them to.
In the end say all you want about how good bad or whatever the Central coaching is,I'll say this and then I'm done.
This sport needs a community to flourish,baseball ,basketball, soccer,football all have grade school community support ,training ,participation.The highly successful programs have successful junior programs . The lack of Central having a Jr program that provides the high school with competent rookies is why it languishes.
The coaches can only get new kids to a certain level and IF that level isn't where the kid they wrestle against started high school at, the results can be mailed in.
How "hard" it is to get behind the program isn't as important as the people whose kids leave through graduation not staying behind the program.
Most of Jackson's senior laden state potential team is grade school trained talent,four or more won USA State medals in grade school,one ,the 189 pound kid, was a state champ,AND most are second generation wrestlers.
For Central or ND either to have lasting success they both need people with the love of the sport who will work as hard as they ask the kids to .Then the micromanaging of single match decisions isn't so important because a program doesn't hang in the balance of a single match.
Central has parents who work hard on junior programs in other sports ,they just lack enough of them in wrestling to compete with people who do have the parents.
If you want to blame Central coaching for something forget the match decisions it's more the futility they've faced building a self sustaining program/organization.
Six of the 9 matches ND came out on top in were kids who wrestled in grade school.That meet like all championships was "made" when "no one was watching".
I'll throw this out and close.
The "Tiger Classic " is a huge undertaking,the manpower it usurps from the parent base is not from a bottomless pit. People will give you just so much effort and then they are done. maybe the other two Cape County schools need to be invited to help with that tournament in some significant measure,maybe the work load it puts on the coaches is why they are content to wrestle "away" so much. Just a thought.
-- Posted by grappler on Mon, Jan 17, 2011, at 6:16 AM
Hate to burst y'alls bubble but rasslins right up there with synchronized swimming. Course if ur from ND, that fine self-aggrandizing institution, its in ur blood to self-promote. I believe they would probably figure out a way to recruit students to fill out a pinewood derby team if MSHSAA gave out plaques for such an event. But I digress, after all isn't the the first commandment: "Thou shalt play no other Bingo before Notre Dame Bingo". Keep on grapplin!!
-- Posted by cirithungol17 on Mon, Jan 17, 2011, at 9:16 AM
Hey cirithungoll12 if "rasslin" is so unimportant to you why comment?
-- Posted by grappler on Mon, Jan 17, 2011, at 8:14 PM
the issue with the 125 kid quiting WAS a coaching thing, I have talked to him a few times about it but I'm not going to go into anymore specifics on here about that.
You have to understand what I mean by it is hard to get into wrestling. I mean there is support for baseball and basketball in this area because it is just the norm to sign a kid up for little league and church league. Wrestling, sadly, is just such a smaller sport in this area.
-- Posted by BB-BORE on Mon, Jan 17, 2011, at 9:19 PM
Apparently it's important enough for cirith to take time to whine about it. Boohoo.
-- Posted by FarmBoy06 on Mon, Jan 17, 2011, at 9:59 PM
I guess I'm always amazed how ND'ers always think their particular activity and accomplishments are just so neat and cool!! No offense to any grapplers though, individually they work their butts off. ND'ers just always seem to describe their feats in such a way that makes em seem like they believe they are the chosen ones. Which is why I was amused I guess.
-- Posted by cirithungol17 on Mon, Jan 17, 2011, at 10:23 PM
I am NOT a Notre Dame fan just to get that out there to any that don't know, but I do cheer for a few of my friends that go there. This actually is quite an accomplishment, for a second year team to win this dual with as many first and second year wrestlers as they have is impressive. They have one of, if not the best coaches in southeast missouri.
-- Posted by BB-BORE on Mon, Jan 17, 2011, at 10:53 PM
A Cape-area media guy posted this. One ND fan has been posting a lot about it. That's hardly all ND fans thinking their accomplishments are "so neat and cool." You want to know what amazes me? How people like you apparently have so little going on in your life that you get on here and talk trash about ND any time anything is posted.
-- Posted by FarmBoy06 on Tue, Jan 18, 2011, at 12:26 AM
Fact is FB,SemoSports,bullet ,et al. people from all schools like to trumpet the accomplishments of their athletes,ND included but not exclusively.
I have heard rumblings about coaching in every successful and every floundering program , it comes with the territory.
I hope I have adhered to a standard of posting only what I personally have seen,if not I apologize.
Thanks for the compliment to our coaching, Marc Stevener is as high a quality individual as he is a coach .
Whenever I hear carping from wrestlers about coaching I hark en back to my own days when I would be cutting weight. It can make a kid less than rational at times,there were times I'd lay in bed and scheme to do the coach harm, next morning I would be fine.
It's a fine line wrestling coaches have to tread, when you are pushing too little, when not enough.
Considering the performance I've seen from some of the Central wrestlers I think the coaches there can push the "right" kids to be better, you can't push some though, they buckle ,rebel ,quit (not saying that's the case here,I only know what I hear, and if it's only what I hear ,I'm not sayin).
Wrestling is a sport that finds the "right stuff" if you have it, and exposes if you don't,it can also instill it.
That is why I am such a fan.
I'll tell you a story here.
A few years back I spoke to the father of a kid who had just won the Tiger Classic in his weight class,the dad told me, "two weeks ago he was crying after a match at Farmington and said he sucked and was going to quit".
Sometimes you need to sleep on it before you make decisions.
I have hung in at times ,I have quit at times,I don't regret the times I hung in,I shudder when I think of the times I quit.
Back to my point about the grade school programs,IMO and just MO, when a kid comes up through grade school wrestling ,he gets to high school with the ability to find the "right stuff" inside himself, the decision not to EVER quit has been made and when he and a coach don't see eye to eye it changes how he approaches it.The weeding out/instilling has been done before they get there.
There are MANY very successful kids programs around ,it can be done ,and I predict it will be for both ND and Cape Central, it just needs a few dads with the "right stuff".
It is a sport that has limited popularity because it requires so much of the athlete but it's a high reward sport as well,few experiences in life equal having your hand raised in victory as one kid told me,"that's better than shootin' a deer".
I can and will talk about this forever, as long as it's kept the way the line above the box admonishes it to be.
I close with this, ND is a top 50 Catholic High School which means it is top 5% of the top 10% of ALL high schools. Some success is inherited,this is not ,it's earned through relentless hard work.All that is inherited is the expectation that those who accept the name Notre Dame continue that relentless work ethic.No sport better epitomizes that work ethic than wrestling,maybe that is why they closed the gap so quickly.
Anyone who chooses to interpret the success of Notre Dame as unwarranted ,to lash out over their own self doubt can JUST GO GET............better.
And so will we.
-- Posted by grappler on Tue, Jan 18, 2011, at 6:26 AM
grappler---Nice post and I can tell your heart is in it but as I posted earlier, there is a difference in "funding" a program and going out and getting wrestlers and "building" a program with kids that were already at ND...The question should be, how many of the kids on the wrestling team would be at ND if they didn't have wrestling? How many would have gone to Jackson (where they live), or stayed in Sikeston? I know MANY people and students at ND and they do have a great work ethic but IMO you are comparing apples to oranges...Sports in public schoools tend to be much more cyclical and Centrals wrestling program will struggle for the next few years. As I stated earlier, it is a great character builder and requires determination and hard work. That is why I admire the ones who give their heart to the sport.
-- Posted by crackerjack on Tue, Jan 18, 2011, at 6:59 AM
I gotta give props to Central on even stepping up battle ND on the road in the first place. Central could have easily let ND and NMCC go at and just stay home.
But that's where long-term vision comes in. I think we have the makings of another River City Rumble with the ND-Central dual. And when it does come over to Central.. in the word of the late George Carlin, 'you talk about fuuuuuuuuuuuuun s---!'
-- Posted by vincebrown on Tue, Jan 18, 2011, at 7:40 AM
The school districts all the out of town kids come from have wrestling,they didn't come to ND to wrestle.
They decided to wrestle at Notre Dame because that was where they wanted to go to school.
But yeah Vince it's game on now and let's hope the competition keeps both working hard.
-- Posted by grappler on Tue, Jan 18, 2011, at 11:52 PM
grappler--If you believe that then that is fine...I can assure you that if ND didn't start wrestling didn't start at ND that the Sikeston or Jackson kids wouldn't have went...It doesn't matter as it is legal so be it..
-- Posted by crackerjack on Wed, Jan 19, 2011, at 9:48 PM
bullett,I don't just believe ,I happen to know that some of those who are there now were instrumental in raising the funds to finance the program.
95 % of the funds were raised from people outside the district to start the program so that people who were coming to ND (with or without wrestling) COULD wrestle, the decision to go to Notre Dame was made regardless if they were successful in their efforts.
The "beliefs" of people outside the loop at schools like Notre Dame can at times rise to a level close to bigotry.
Back to the coaching at Cape central, know this, they are competent ,the rumblings here about them and the dissent within the "room" is a subject that really illuminates a lot of why Notre Dame succeeds on athletic budgets that are a fraction of their competitors .
Most people who are knowledgeable about coaching understand that the biggest hurdle coaches have to clear is getting the athlete to "let you coach them". The resistance to authority that permeates public institutions because the student has the "right" to be there isn't a problem for teachers OR coaches at Notre Dame and other "private " schools, recalcitrant students and athletes get nowhere with efforts to undermine ND coaches and teachers.
The athletes and their parents know that going in and in deed are there largely FOR that reason.
The imaginary "recruiting" /gathering of elite talent is so minimal and doesn't occur any more predominantly in most "private' schools than in public schools. The fact is you can and will succeed with a lesser talent base as long as you can get near universal commitment ,which is frankly there within the totality of an attitude that must be present when a parent opts to pay the steep tuition at the private school. You don't pay that kind of money to let your kid undermine authority, they can do that for "free" at a public school.
All that said I don't know ALL the dynamics and undercurrents of the Central wrestling program, but I know whatever traction any "uprising " that is transpiring there ,it would be much more difficult to get that "traction" at ND. The administration at ND "has your back" in public schools it's often every man for himself and it creates an environment good coaches have difficulty overcoming when things go south for a while, and especially when you ask kids to take the extraordinary personal efforts wrestlers undertake.
I know a lot of wrestling coaches,the bad ones are few, Central's are not among those bad ones, they can and would produce quality with the right backing and people.
Now more than ever they need people to rally to help ,not smell blood in the water and gather for a "feeding frenzy".
-- Posted by grappler on Thu, Jan 20, 2011, at 6:34 AM
nice post Thordaddy, i mean short shorts ear piece guy, i mean grappler
-- Posted by Shadow-the-hedgehog on Thu, Jan 20, 2011, at 10:40 PM
well thanks to sonic i think i know who grappler is now. I agree with you on the entire family buying into the system and believing in the coaches and doing what they want because it is what is best for the wrestler and team. I do notagree with you on the why kids go to ND, well at least not completely because what I am going to talk about are the exceptions. I was enrolled at ND because I went through private schools all the way through 8th grade, everything was done and I was ready to start high school at Notre Dame and in July before my freshman year i decided I wanted to attend Central for reasons I won't discuss on here. I have quite a few friends that are going to Notre Dame but want to go to the schools of their home town, most of which Central. Their parents won't let them transfer though, they want them to attend the school they attended, get a Catholic high school education, or just don't feel comfortable with sending their kid to another school. It's parents being selfish in all three of those situations, parents being afraid of letting their kids into the outside world ans something different. As for a catholic education I think that Central is one of the best decisions I have made, it's not what people think, we do still teach a little religion mostly in history classes because of how relevent the Roman Catholic Church is throughout our past. I really hate having to say this but I almost have to say that choosing Central was better for my faith, it allowed me to see Catholicism from a different perspective.
You obviously are far more into wrestling than I am, especially if you are who I think you are, as I am just a friend of many wrestlers and have had a few people in my family wrestle so I enjoy the sport. I have had both of Central's coaches in classes over the past few years and they are fine people, I think they let their personal experiences take over their coaching sometimes and think of what they would've done in certain positions instead of what the current wrestler should do. I feel that this could be because they are both young coaches so this should get better as they get experience.
-- Posted by BB-BORE on Thu, Jan 20, 2011, at 11:17 PM
Well now that this thread has turned to personal jibes,and making the issue WHO says something not what is being said I guess we can look forward to more trolling,so IMA go now, but thanks Semo for standing behind those guys at Central, they want the best for that team and in the end so do I with the exception of not beating the Umbwas.
-- Posted by grappler on Fri, Jan 21, 2011, at 5:28 AM
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Had a chance to see ND's wrestlers at home for the first time in school history. Swept both NMCC and Cape Central - and by 20+ points in each case.
Coach Ross Stevener's got a solid squad, especially in the light and middle weights. Their 189 (Harter) is a solid kid as well.
Don't be surprised if the Dogs make it 2 for 2 in sending kids to state.
Replies (28)